Name: Cindy Li aka Ciel
Occupation: Producer, DJ
Nationality: Canadian
Current release: The new Ciel album Ecstatic Editions Vol. 1 is out via Ecstatic Editions. Cindy also has a new mix out via Phonica.
Recommendations: Tarkovsky's Stalker has the most insane sound editing I've ever heard in a movie.
Philip Jeck - 'Wholesome'

If you enjoyed this Ciel interview and would like to know more about her music, visit her official website. She is also on Instagram, Facebook, twitter, and Soundcloud.

When I listen to music, I see shapes, objects and colours. What happens in your body when you're listening? Do you listen with your eyes open or closed?

When I listen to music, I see scenes — either from my real life or imagined moments drawn from movies, books, or dreams. When the music moves me, I feel an extra bounce in my step, or goosebumps all over my bodies; sometimes I may even hum along or cry.

90% of the time I do listen with my eyes open, but when it's *really* special and sublime, I close my eyes to feel it deeper.

What were your very first steps in music like - and how do you rate gains made through experience versus the naiveté of those first steps?

My first steps were when I was maybe 2 or 3 years old. I don't really rememeber but my mom played me an old cassette recording from my grandmother's house of me humming along to my dad playing the guitar. No matter what note my dad played, I knew exactly what melody it was and I could play the corresponding key on my toy keyboard.

My parents both loved music and wanted to foster what they saw was a natural ear for music and enrolled me in piano classes. For better or worse, my relationship with music after this became super disciplined and regimented. I wasn't really given the opportunity to be naive with it. I had piano drills I had to play and they weren't much fun, though whenever my parents or teachers weren't around, I would play melodies I made up for fun.

I still do this when I'm writing and producing today. This method of "jamming" out melodies feels so natural that it's like second nature to me, even if I I worry the melodies often sound too typical of the music I grew up playing.

After I started going to public school in the US, I got exposed to non-classical music outside of my family for the first time in my life and those were instrumental in leading me eventually to DJing.

According to scientific studies, we make our deepest and most incisive musical experiences between the ages of 13-16. What did music mean to you at that age and what’s changed since then?

That's a very interesting factoid, because I think that period of my life was the most influential on me getting into DJing in university.

At 13 I was still listening to mostly teen pop like Spice Girls, 'NSYNC, even Westlife. Once high school came, and the Internet (and Napster) became more accessible to my generation, I got exposed to bands that were much more interesting and sophisticated. I got really into brit pop bands like Radiohead, Blur, Oasis, Travis. Then, later, older bands like the Stone Roses and MBV, or IDM artists like Aphex Twin and Squarepusher.

I was an "artsy" misfit teen and thought my music taste defined who I was. I voraciously consumed Thom Yorke interviews where he talked about the music that inspired him. I had heard Kid A and became fascinated with the electronic sounds, and wanted to do whatever I could to find more and weirder. That was my gateway into alternative, underground music, which soon led me away from rock bands and into DJs/producers.

Nowadays I still love the songs of that era, and I still get really obsessed with artists, but I dont really follow bands or even listen to them much outside of karaoke nights. I also no longer define myself by what I listen to. To be frank, there were a lot of toxic ideas about music I had absorbed from hanging out in record shops and these online music forums, where music was something that was either objectively good or shite, and nothing was more important than my opinion on it.

It took actually making music and working as a full time artist to understand how important it is to not overinflate the importance of my opinions, and to not judge music so harshly, as if I was a critic and my opinions on music were something to gain clout or respect from.

Music is a pure and wonderful thing that brings joy to so many people. I think it's pretty silly to try to one-up others over their personal preferences.

Over the course of your development, what have been your most important instruments and tools and how have they shaped your perspective on music?
 
The piano is the single most important instrument in my life. It has completely shaped my conception of melody and harmony, and all the theory I learned while studying piano has had a massive influence on how I produce and even how I DJ.

Because my exposure and education came so early, my relationship with the piano feels super intuitive. I learned to read music before I had even learned to speak English! But while that is helpful in some ways, it can also be detrimental. The melodies that flow out of my fingers the most organically often sound way too much indebted to western classical, pop standards, or the Chinese music my parents would sing around me as a child. The times when I've tried to write something more atonal or unconventional has felt like pulling teeth.

It makes sense. We are a product of our education and upbringing and our formative years were the most influential. I must study more if I want to adjust what comes naturally from my brain.

What, would you say, are the key ideas behind your approach to music and what motivates you to create?

Over the last 6 years of music production, I think what has emerged as a key idea in my practice is the abundant use of sampling. I always assumed that as a classically trained pianist, I would be more drawn to synthesis and use a ton of gear in my work. Instead I'm almost entirely in the box, except for my Korg Electribe esx1 which I still use all the time.

I think what draws me to sampling is this idea that any sound in your environment can be turned into music. I'm also crazy about cinema, and the trained-musician part of me refrains from sampling other music, so over time I found myself primarily sampling from movies or from my life experiences. My phone recorder has hundreds of recordings from tours and youtube that eventually ended up on my releases. There is just something very personal and evocative about sampling in this way.

As I answered in the first question, music makes me think of scenes. I have always loved stories and I make music that I imagine would soundtrack the scenes of mine or someone else's life. I think music comes alive when I hear them alongside a visual component, and oftentimes it's quite therapeutic to work out my feelings on a long train ride while listening to a really beautiful album.

I think because of that, I also am very motivated to work on music on a daily basis when I'm not on tour because the process of creating music is also incredibly therapeutic for me. Even if nothing amazing comes out of a session, just the act of thinking about something other than my problems for a few hours per day does wonders for my mind which has a tendency to fixate on negative things that I can't change.

Music production is my cocoon away from all that.

Paul Simon said “the way that I listen to my own records is not for the chords or the lyrics - my first impression is of the overall sound.” What's your own take on that and how would you define your personal sound?

As a producer and DJ, it can be incredibly challenging to hear my music critically. I always say that within my ears exist two personalities — the ears of a DJ and the ears of a composer.

When I'm writing, I am often led by what comes naturally to me as a piano player, but when I'm arranging and editing, I often have to trim a lot of the melodic ideas because they dont make sense in the context of dance music. Losing perspective is a constant battle, and I find the only place I can regain that perspective and hear my own music critically is inside the DJ booth.

Playing music I'm working on alongside music by producers I love is very illuminating. It instantly shows me what my track is missing when I observe how the crowd moves to my tracks. I have always been multi genre in how I dj and how I produce. So perhaps like Mr. Simon, I too look at the overall sound of my tracks in order to really critique them.

But unlike Mr. Simon, us underground DIY artists that do our own mixdowns don't have the luxury of not listening to the details. In fact, my mixdown ears are the most insane part of me!

Sound, song, and rhythm are all around us, from animal noises to the waves of the ocean. What, if any, are some of the most moving experiences you've had with these non-human-made sounds? In how far would you describe them as “musical”?

The older I am, the more my love of nature and animals grows. Music is all around us indeed. This is a guiding principle in my production. I've turned rain drops into arpeggiated bleeps, loon calls into synth leads, the wind moving through leaves into percussive effects. They're all musical and contain harmonic content.

One summer during the pandemic, I went to a cottage with my bf and some of our friends and absolutely went wild with the recorder. A lot of those sounds found their way on to my Mister Saturday Night EP. One of the tracks is named after the cottage lake, called “Buck Lake.”



From symphonies and traditional verse/chorus-songs to linear techno tracks and free jazz, there are myriads ways to structure a piece of music. Which approaches work best for you – and why?

Well, I don't make symphonies or free jazz so I wouldn't utilize those approaches. But I think because I grew up with pop music, I do have a tendency to fall into ABAB song structures. I am drawn to making songs that change throughout the course of the track, sometimes alternating major and minor key.

Over time I made a conscious effort to get away from that and to make things that were more simple, and part of how I did that was switch from arrangement view to clip view to arrange my music in ableton live. I did that for a year and a half before switching back to arrangement view, which just feels most comfortable to me.

During that time I made a ton of remixes which taught me how to rearrange other people's music. I also taught myself how to make a live set in clip view. Both of those experiences had a massive influence on how my arrangement style changed. Nowadays I can arrange something as quickly as half an hour.

I find expediency is super important in the arrangement stage or else you get stuck getting used to hearing the structure in a certain way that may not be the best.

Sometimes, science and art converge in unexpected ways. Do you conduct “experiments” or make use of scientific insights when you're making music?

I'm not so good with the scientific aspect of electronic music production. In fact that's the part I find the most alienating and intimidating.

Most of my "experiments" and "happy accidents" are the result of me not knowing how something works, and playing around with the knobs until something cool comes out, and then I manipulate the sample.

How does the way you make music reflect the way you live your life? Can we learn lessons about life by understanding music on a deeper level?

I'm very meticulous, methodical, and intentional. So I do allow those inclinations to have a major impact in how I work in the studio.

Of course I also love to experiment and love when happy accidents happen, but from my experience, it's still important to have an idea of what you want to make before you just start jamming. That idea and intent is what will guide you along the series of deliberate choices and happy accidents to a finished track.

I finish every track I start and I don't start a new one until I've finished the previous one. Most producers I know do not make music this way. But my early music education taught me one very important skill - discipline. Balancing self discipline and the desire to explore and have fun is how I've arrived at this point.

Do you feel as though writing or performing a piece of music is inherently different from something like making a great cup of coffee? What do you express through music that you couldn't or wouldn't in more 'mundane' tasks?

Making coffee is more like beatmatching - a skill you learn from practice but nothing that complex. Creating a recipe and turning it into a dish is more like making music, which requires a complex set of skills that intersect.

Creation is a series of choices, and there is nothing inherently wrong or right about the creative choices you make. Making coffee has a right way and a wrong way. It's no comparison.

Every time I listen to "Albedo 0.39" by Vangelis, I choke up. But the lyrics are made up of nothing but numbers and values. Do you, too, have a song or piece of music that affects you in a way that you can't explain?

It is impossible for me to hear “Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence” by Sakamoto or Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun by Claude Debussy without choking up.

When I was 18, I'd listen to drone music by Fennesz and bawl my eyes out. A lot of classical music makes me well up with emotion. My first time at the opera left me a weepy mess even though I didn't understand a word of it.

I personally think instrumental music is more emotionally evocative than songs with lyrics we understand, because we can attach any meaning and / or memory to them, thereby making the listening experience so much more personal to us.

If you could make a wish for the future – what are developments in music you would like to see and hear?

I would love to score a horror film someday.