Name: WAAN
Members: Bart Wirtz (saxophone), Emiel van Rijthoven (keys)
Interviewee: Emiel van Rijthoven

Nationality: Dutch
Current Release: WAAN's full-length debut Echo Echo, co-produced by Oscar de Jong, is out February 24th via Sonar Kollektiv.

If you enjoyed this interview with WAAN and would like to find out more about the band's music, visit the WAAN on Instagram. To keep reading, check out our conversation with the duo about improvisation. 



For many artists, a solitary phase of creative development precedes collaborative work. What was this like for you: How would you describe your own development as an artist and the transition towards your first collaborations?

Ah first question already a good one. Haha.

So, going back, my main instrument is the piano. I started playing it around 11 y/o, coming from a family which is classical orientated. From the start I was playing from what I heard or imagined and I added chords and and bass notes to the simple melodies from my first book. So that over the years changed my ‘route’ towards jazz piano.

From I think 16 years I started to play together with other students from music school. That continued on the “conservatory” (a dutch version of arts school of music) for 4/5 years. During that period there was simultaneously a personal development, studying the piano, music theory,  learning to write music, and playing, collaborating with other people.

So there was no real noticeable transition for me, really.

Tell me a bit, about your current instruments and tools, please. In which way do they support creative exchange and collaborations with others? Are there obstacles and what are potential solutions towards making collaborations easier?

Technology has advanced so much, so quickly. It’s now super easy to work from your (my) home studio and email or cloud-thing-solution or even whatsapp parts to your fellow collaborator. I am quite tech savvy so I live in a fantastic era.

I gathered lots of stuff the past years, and have a decent pro-home studio. The DAW is very important when recording the stuff, and knowing your way around in the software is vital. So then, if necessary, you can troubleshoot what you get from someone, and correctly deliver your parts back.

What could be an improvement is an easier way to share whole projects, like a sort of google docs, but then for your DAW. And for free please.

What were some of your earliest collaborations? How do you look back on them with hindsight?

I am limiting for now the collaborations to original (self written) music. My first real band “Sensuàl” was a great collab with Eva Kieboom, a singer whom I met during our study.

We started of, fresh out of school, with a Brazilian Band, playing the classics. Very soon we were noticed by a record-company, who gave us carte blanche. We then decided we wanted to switch to original music. This was our chance! That moment really kicked of my song-writing. I made the music, Eva did the Portuguese lyrics, and than we sit together and make it work.

Eventually we made 3 albums over the course of 10 years. That was a great ride, a very formative part of my career.



During that period I also collaborated with other singers, instrumentalists. Made all kinds of music. World, jazz, increasingly also popmusic. Also then I met Bart (the other half of WAAN) doing a one time collaboration, and although it was only one concert, we noticed right away we spoke the same musical language. More than 10 years passed, both of us doing our own stuff, and now we are a duo!

What are some of the things you learned from your collaborations over the years?

Dynamics. With different people. Sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow.

Also my first collab was with Eva, and the roles were quite clear in our work-relation. That came very natural and so I thought, this is how you work together in music.

But then I learned, working with other people, that you can have a completely other role in the process.

How do you feel your sense of identity influences your collaborations? Do you feel as though you are able to express yourself more fully in solo mode or, conversely, through the interaction with other musicians? Are you “gaining” or “sacrificing” something in a collaboration?

Hard to say, sometimes the musical ideas coming from one mind is super strong, and sometimes working together is making the music richer and more interesting.

I am definitely sacrificing, working together, but so are the others. That is good. When you are working solo, you are also throwing away your ideas, because you “think” you have a better one. I think solo / collab produces different music and is therefore complementary.

Me personally, I don’t work solo that often, but I like both.

There are many potential models for collaboration, from live performances and jamming via producing in the same room together up to file sharing. Which of these do you prefer – and why?

Impossible for me to choose! Okay, maybe in the same room together stands out a bit, together with live performance. I am a live-player. I noticed that especially when covid hit us: no live gigs. After a while I really started to miss it.

Jamming is nice, but can also be very slow, Producing is really nice, if done correctly, because someone else puts boundaries on your creativity, so you don’t have to think about the whole “what” and “why”. In a room together is favourite because communication is super quick. So you kan instantly react creatively.

And finally the advantage with file sharing is that you can do 6000 takes of a part without someone tapping your shoulder / complaining about bleeding ears.

Is there typically a planning phase for your collaborations? If so, what happens in this phase and how does it contribute to the results?

When writing / producing together: No, or (too) little. Most of the times someone has “something” to start off with, that is enough.

On the other hand, when I am asked to play keys on somebody's track, the planning is straight forward, email with instructions, wishes, and a deadline.

What tend to be the best collaborations in your opinion – those with artists you have a lot in common with or those where you have more differences? What happens when another musician take you outside of your comfort zone?

I can’t really correlate differences or having a lot in common with the succes factor.

It depends often on the “click” you have with the other person(s). Whether or not there is enough mutual trust. Trust is a big thing. When there is trust, things can start to flow. And you can more easily leave your comfort zone (and move to where the magic happens).
 
Do you need to have a good relationship with your collaborator? Or can there be a benefit to working with someone you may not get along with on a personal level?

Not a benefit I guess for me. I sometimes do commercials, and I never meet my contractor. And I really enjoy the jobs that come now and then. So I don’t really need a good relationship to have a enjoyable collab!

Some artists feel as though the creative process should not be a democratic one. What are your thoughts on the interaction with other musicians, the need for compromise and the decision making process?

I mentioned this a bit above. I also think that sometimes a song has to be from one mind. But also sometimes democratic, you can gather evidence of beautiful art / songs made by one person or multiple. So let that “Some Artists” make his solo album on his own ;) fine with me haha.

With WAAN we did most songs together and some from only me, some from only Bart.

What's your take on cross-over collaborations between different genres?

Great. If it is what you are looking for.

When I worked together with a Flamenco guitarist, a world opened for me. And for him. It produced great music (search for Luzazul with the album Canvas)



In a live situation, decisions between creatives often work without words. How does this process work – and how does it change your performance compared to a solo performance?

Yes, without words. But music is a language in itself. There are many words spent on the music before and also after playing, to reflect on it.

Also when you play on your own, the reflection comes after you play a piece, albeit in your head only. But during playing in a formation, the expression in music is mostly picked up by the other musicians and reacted to. Like a question-answer or remark-answer dynamic.

There are many descriptions of the ideal state of mind for being creative. What is it like for you as part of a collaboration? In which way is it different between your solo work and collaborations?
 
I am lucky in that I am not sensitive to personal moods, correct lightning or the environment. Most of the time, solo or together, as soon as I start making music, all other things slide to the back of my head, and I am in music-world.
I forget time.

And appointments.

Collaborating with one's heroes can be a thrill or a cause for panic. Do you have any practical experience with this and what was it like?

Not really, yes age helps. When I was younger, I was more insecure, and it affected my playing. Being more experienced, that’s ok now. Most of the time I know what I can and can’t do.

And also most of the time, the moment you start working together with someone you look up to, it levels out a bit, because you are trying to connect to each other.