Names: Cindy Li aka Ciel, Mathis Ruffing
Nationalities: Canadian (Ciel), German (Mathis)
Occupations: Producers, DJs
Current release: Ciel and Mathis Ruffing team up for the Hot Squid EP, out via Punctuality.

If you enjoyed this interview with Ciel and Mathis Ruffing and would like to stay up to date with their music, visit Ciel's official homepage and Mathis's Instagram profile.

For a deeper dive, read our earlier Cindy Li / Ciel interview.



What were some of your earliest collaborations? How do you look back on them with hindsight?

Ciel: The first artists I ever got in the studio with and made music with are my friends Priori and Alex Sheaf back in 2018.

Those tracks were eventually released on Terrafirm under a collaborative alias for me and Priori called Loopchasers in 2021.



In 2018 I had only been producing music for about a year, so I was intimidated by my friends and scared to reveal how little I knew. But looking back I’m really grateful to have made music with these exact people as my first experience, because they are both very nurturing and non-judgmental, and I’m glad I forced myself to do something so scary so early on in my production career.

It taught me very early on to 1) not let my ego or insecurity stop me from collaborating with others because 2) you end up learning a lot very quickly and 3) there isn’t a producer on this planet without gaps in their knowledge, and the beauty of collaboration is bringing something unique to the studio setting and coming together with your collaborators like pieces of a puzzle.

There are many potential models for collaboration, from live performances and jamming / producing in the same room together up to file sharing. Which of these do you prefer – and why?

Mathis: Depends on the circumstances. But my ideal modus operandi is corporeal co-presence i.e. sitting next to each other in the studio.

To get something going, I love to do an “against the clock” kind of format. You set a timer for 10 minutes and you take turns. Once you’ve got something cool, you start to ignore the clock and just finish the idea.

How did this particular collaboration come about?

Ciel: Completely spontaneously. Me and Mathis were only internet friends when we first met in the summer of 2022 in Berlin. We got acquainted because I played a couple of his tracks in my pandemic mixes.

We had made plans to go record digging and when we finished, my evening studio plan was cancelled suddenly and honestly I was really bummed. So I just randomly suggested to Mathis that we should try to have a jam and surprisingly he said yes - the rest is history!

What did you know about each other before working together? Describe your creative partner in a few words, please.

Ciel: I knew Mathis was a 140+ footwork / bass guy and I absolutely loved his drum grooves.

Mathis: I used Cindy’s splice samples on a bunch of tracks before and knew she was legit lol.

What do you generally look for in a collaborator and what made you want to collaborate with each other specifically?

Ciel: They need to be breathing and have a laptop.

I’m only half joking but in all seriousness, for a long time I was pretty unconcerned and unpicky about who I chose to collaborate with. I know some producers really overthink it, but I have found from experience that some of the best collaborations have come out of relationships that are barely even friendships, and it’s often like a compatibility thing that you might not know until you give it a try.

Conversely some of my closest friends have not always made ideal collaborators. Me and Mathis gave it a try and made ‘Hot Squid’ in the first session. If that had not happened, we might not have continued to make more tracks together. So that initial chemistry and flow is important.

Nowadays I do tend to be a bit choosier about who I collab with, only because if there is a creative difference it can sometimes be impossible to get past, and it’s just nicer to make music with people who more or less like the same things as you, so there isn’t so much labour I have to dedicate to manage these differences.

Tell me a bit about your current instruments and tools, please. In which way do they support creative exchange and collaborations with others?

Ciel: At the moment I’m fascinated by this synth I got sent called BIOTRON which you can attach to plants and it randomly generates midi notes which you can connect to any instrument.

It's a really great tool for collaborations, especially with people you've never made music with before, sometimes there might be a lack of inspiration right away. This one helps you get over that hurdle which I find very helpful.

Otherwise I’m not that worried about having the “right” tools for collaboration. I find sometimes people fixate on these details when all you really need to collaborate with someone is a DAW and a room with 4 walls and a ceiling.

Before you started making music together, did you in any form exchange concrete ideas, goals, or strategies? Generally speaking, what are your preferences when it comes to planning vs spontaneity in a collaboration?

Ciel: Well, since our collaboration was spontaneous, we didn’t really chat in advance to prepare for anything. However, I do think it’s important to set intentions when you start on a track together.

I am not a fan of aimless jamming. Especially when you don’t know each other’s taste too well yet, it’s important to articulate what you want to make, reach an agreement with each other, as that intention also is a guide to keep you on track during meandering studio sessions. Sometimes we might share some tracks we are super inspired by at the moment, and maybe use that as a starting point but not relying on it either. And then we just take turns at the “driver’s seat”, a.k.a. the studio chair.

I also think it’s helpful to mention what particular skills you are really comfortable with. For example, I can arrange tracks really quickly and I told Mathis that from the first session, and over time I would just take the lead on that which proved very productive. It’s important every artist has a moment to shine in the studio as well.

Describe the process of working on the Hot Squid EP, please. What was different from your expectations and what did the other add to the music?

Mathis: Collaboration is always about compromise. If you want to control everything then why bother working with someone else? Just do it on your own then. So, I listened to Cindy and we did things a lot differently to if I were to work by myself.

First of all: We went much slower. My Ableton usually doesn't go below 140BPM lol. And I also usually put too much shit in my tracks and overburden them. Cindy slowed me down and was like “chill out, that’s enough” and I really needed that!

Is there a piece which shows the different aspects you each contributed to the process particularly clearly?

Ciel: I think “Hot Squid” probably is the most exemplary of each of our styles and strengths. It’s got the kind of arrangement that shows up often in my music - a kind of tonal shift halfway through the track that I think a lot of my previous releases do.

It’s got the great techy drums with the Detroit-sounding chords with the pitch modulation, and it’s got vocal chops from iconic movies that give the outro this fun jacking / old school Chicago vibe.

Mathis: Yes, I agree with Cindy here. My signature on that track is definitely the use of these weird, noisy FM sounds made with Ableton’s Operator. It’s my favorite synth and a real Swiss army knife.

What tend to be the best collaborations in your opinion – those with artists you have a lot in common with or those where you have more differences?

Ciel: I don’t think the answer to this is simple. Sometimes musically you might not have a lot in common, but personality-wise it just works in the studio. Which means if both artists are quite dominant, type A, it might be challenging to agree on creative decisions.

Sometimes you have a lot in common, or you could be very close friends, but in the studio you are bumping heads. I wish there was a magical formula, but it really is one of those things you have to try to find out.

What happens when another musician takes you outside of your comfort zone?

Mathis: In short: magic.

I think the goal of collaboration is to be challenged and to get to places where you wouldn’t end up at by yourself. And that goes both ways :)

Decisions between creatives often work without words. How did this process work in this case?

Ciel: I really don’t agree with the idea that creatives often work without words. Maybe if you are super super close and you can read each other well without speaking. But I find articulating what you want is always the most important skill to have in the studio.

Being direct is personally just something that is important to me and I’d always prefer to take the guesswork out of collaborations.

What are your thoughts on the need for compromise vs standing by one’s convictions? How did you resolve potential disagreements in this collaboration?

Ciel: compromising is as important as articulating what you want in the studio. Sometimes collaborators might shoot down ideas too quickly, without giving them a chance to exist in the track, because as producers know, individual ideas can totally change when new ideas are introduced on top and the context is no longer the same.

But I’m sure I’ve been guilty of shooting stuff down before I’ve let it marinate, and that’s why it’s very important that every collaborator can defend their ideas even in the face of pushback. And even if you can't come to an agreement then, that's usually when we introduce a mix 1 and a mix 2.

Sure I have strong views about how my music should sound, but I will always defend others’ right to showcase their unique vision in the music they put out. We don’t have to agree, music is subjective. But you don’t want to necessarily put your name on something you don’t think represents you.  

Was/Is this collaboration fun – does it need to be?

Ciel: Yeah of course! Actually it kind of helped us become friends.

When we first started, we barely knew each other. Since then Mathis has played in my city of Toronto, we’ve hung out and eaten countless places together in Berlin and Toronto and Paris. Played shows together as well.

It’s been such a pleasure getting to know Mathis, who is probably my very first German friend!

Do you find that thanks to this collaboration, you changed certain parts of your process or your outlook on certain creative aspects?

Mathis: Yes!! Cindy is the arrangement queen. She just doesn’t stop until there’s a good structure in the track and that’s a great habit that I have also implemented since.

Also the way she uses already existing elements to create different scenes and changes within a track is really inspiring.