Part 2

What does the term jazz mean today, would you say?

When I think of jazz, I always think of intellectual freedom in general, rather than a style of music. Jazz can also be an attitude towards life and not just an artistic expression.

I think I have a jazzy nature and I like improvisations in life. I enjoy the unknown and the unpredictable. It's more fun and more exciting - it's jazz!
 
Jazz was about a lot more than just music in the 60s and 70s, from politics to fashion. For you personally, is jazz still a way of life – and if so, in which way?  

I think things have changed in the last 30 or 40 years, and definitely in the last 5 or 10 years. Nowadays, you can be a successful jazz musician and lead a non-jazz life. You don't have to be Charlie Parker anymore when it comes to your lifestyle.

I'm seeing the resurgence of new jazz now, especially in the UK, with artists like GoGo Penguin, Yusef Dayes, Kamaal Williams, Nubya Garcia, or the American band Snarky Puppy -artists who are enjoying success with their new jazz language that they're offering to surprisingly large audiences, without necessarily leading a jazz life, whether it's philosophical, political or spiritual.

When I see this new jazz scene in the UK, which includes some other artists I like, such as Alfa Mist, Shabaka Hutchings, Yazz Ahmed, Matthew Halsall, Emma Rawicz, Mansur Brown and others, it gives me hope for jazz, because the problem with jazz as a cultural phenomenon is that it became a bit too elitist as an attitude, and especially in the US, it got stuck in the past. That's my impression.

[Read our GoGo Penguin interview]
[Read our GoGo Penguin interview about improvisation]
[Read our Nubya Garcia interview]
[Read our Alfa Mist interview]
[Read our Yazz Ahmed interview]
[Read our Yazz Ahmed interview about Heritage and Identity]
[Read our Matthew Halsall interview]

Maybe new jazz can encompass the world and become a cultural and political phenomenon again? I'm not sure, I don't know, all I know is that there is tons of great new jazz in the world today.

Something is "happening" and countries like Poland, South Africa as well France and Italy, are producing new young, emerging talent. I'm not sure it will be a way of life anymore.  

Many people perceive jazz as a genre with high barriers of entrance, both for listeners and musicians. What have your own experiences been in this regard?

For some people, jazz has become an elitist music. Many of those who dislike or ignore jazz are those who have never heard any jazz or have a superficial knowledge of jazz only because they have heard a cliché jazz piano trio or someone blowing their instrument to exhaustion in the nightmare of free-jazz, or a corporate guy with curly hair playing soft, boring music on a soprano saxophone pretending to be jazz music.

It is true that many jazz musicians, intentionally or not, have decided to be elitist, choosing to live in their own jazz bubble, which has put them in a corner of the niche, and that is how they like to see themselves and that is how others would see them. That is the case with progressive rock as well. People say they are jazz-heads or prog-heads or fusion-heads and by having that mentality, they are becoming elitist. Therefore, anything that is not jazz or progressive is “trash” or not valid for them. Therefore, those who are prejudiced against jazz and progressive will despise jazz and progressive even more.

This sectarianism is not healthy. But this can be applied to anything in our society, especially today, while we had hopes - and big ones - just a few decades ago, that this sectarianism will disappear, especially in the arts and on music circuits. Identity politics and the way of imposing thoughts have also penetrated intellectual circles with ferocious forces. Resistance to it is also alive, but it is a struggle.

Derek Bailey defined improvising as the search for material which is endlessly transformable. As of 2024, what kind of materials are particularly stimulating for you?

I think that “human material” remains the most important factor in life, which is rich in poetry, creativity and courage to discover new dimensions of meanings of life and arts.

That’s so jazz to me!

What are currently direction in jazz or jazz-adjacent communities which you personally find interesting?

As I mentioned before, I am very excited about the new jazz that is emerging in the UK, South Africa and Poland, as well as in France, Spain and Italy, and not just in the US. And I love when jazz meets ethical elements.

Currently, my favorite artist is Dhafer Youssef, a veteran musician, oud player and singer from Tunisia, based in Vienna, Austria. I had chance to see him perform live and to meet him in person and to have a brief chat, last year in Malaga, here in Spain. What a genius wonderful truly innovative musician, he is a true musical giant for me.

My visit to South Africa in 2019 was a game changer, but unfortunately the pandemic came, and I couldn’t go back as planned, in 2020, but I am looking forward to going back and learning more.

Musicians like Shane Cooper, Sisonke Xonti, Mabuta, Reza Khota, Thandi Ntuli, Bokany Dyer, Ndoduzo Makhathini, Siya Makuzeni, Asher Gamedze, Markus Wyatt were totally unknown names to me until just 4 years ago, and what I have heard is some of the best of modern jazz to my ears.

[Read our Ndoduzo Makhathini interview]

Here is a link on BandCamp to explore some new and old South African jazz.
 
There are various models to support jazz artists, from financial help to mentorships/masterclasses. Which of these feel like the best way forward to you?

Some countries support their talent, including jazz, more than others, but in most cases, jazz is not attractive to corporate sponsors. Big money is not interested in jazz, and when it comes to the big jazz festivals, money and the commercial factor dictate the rules, so it is very common for some of the major jazz festivals to have non-jazz artists in the mainstream pop or rock area, such as the Montreal, Montreux, New Orleans and many more.

For many, jazz is still a dirty word; many think that jazz is too niche and too elitist, and it's interesting that there are so many jazz musicians around the world who want to play jazz or something like that. But miraculously there isn't that much of an audience. This is something I do not get. The numbers are not matching. But sometimes you can see artists like GoGoPenguin filling a 1200-seat theatre in Madrid or Yussef Dayes filling the Royal Albert Hall in London, and drummer Antonio Sanchez filling theaters around the world.

Definitely, with the introduction of jazz studies and music studies in general in schools, there will be possibility and potential to reach bigger audience for jazz, and maybe that would bring in more money. But in my opinion, education is the most important thing, educating the masses that there is quality music and it is not just about the glitziness of the prefabricated pop or hip-hop.

Are there approaches, artists, festivals, labels, spaces or anyone/-thing else out there who you feel deserve a shout out for taking jazz into the future?

Jazz is not dead, just smells funny, to quote Frank Zappa. Jazz will never die, but will smell funnier and funnier.

For many artists, life-changing musical experiences take place live. How do you see that yourself? I think this one can work as is, since it's not dependent on being an artist.

Playing live is the essence of music, but nowadays there are too many artists and too many releases, and the market is oversaturated.

The only thing that works is perseverance. But perseverance works especially with young people: from the age of 40 or 50, musicians start to get more tired, and if they are not in a good financial situation or if they do not reach a level of comfort, then despair, hopelessness, resignation, pessimism start to influence their lives and very often it happens that they give up. Then they either give up everything or start making more “commercial” music to put it on the market, but it does not always work.

Decades ago there were thousand times less artists and now there are too many. Once again, we all have to deal with the oversaturation of the market.
 
The Montreux Festival intends to preserve its archive of recordings for future generations. Do you personally feels it's important that everything should remain available forever - or is there something to be said for letting beautiful moments pass and linger in the memories of those that experienced them?

On the one hand, events should be recorded and archived, but all that also contributes to market oversaturation if they are to be released.

Allan Holdsworth was of the opinion that once the concert is over, it is over, and that the concert was a unique experience that should be treasured in memory of those who attended that concert. Another guitar legend, Scott Henderson, agrees with that. But bootlegers and fans of live recordings don't agree with that. Some fans, especially in the jam band scene in the US, like to have all the live recordings of the Grateful Dead and Phish. And not only that, I once met a guy in New York who collects audience recordings of the same concert and has 20 or 30 versions of a live concert. That's too much and it's sick.

But I like live recordings, the same way I love live or near-live recordings of studio albums. Most festivals record everything, audio and video, which is not a bad idea at all, but some artists don't like that, for various reasons, because in their opinion they didn't play well or in their opinion it wasn't recorded correctly, or their bandmates didn't play the way they wanted the music to be played.

Overall I think it's a great idea, for educational purposes.