Part 2
Late producer SOPHIE said: “You have the possibility with electronic music to generate any texture, and any sound. So why would any musician want to limit themselves?” What's your take on that and the relevance of limitations in your set-up and process?
[GC] I answer you with a quote from one of my favorite directors, Tarkovsky, that talks about cinema but that also fits perfectly with electronic music: "Everything!" This "everything" would not be organic in a novel or in the theater, while in a film it is the most organic thing you can imagine.
[AC] It is certainly true: electronic music was born with the intent to raise questions related to serialism in the context of timbre. But already Edgard Varèse in the twenties of the last century had made important reflections about the limits of traditional instruments and the importance of building new instruments: "a new ear for a new music, a new music for new ears!"
So we can say that the limit is only in knowledge and ideas. The fields of study are still wide.
[TK] Even if you change your perspective on the "limitations" their essence will not change. After the invention of the theremin, John Cage said, "Despite the freedom of tone and expression, many people insisted on faithfully playing classical music." Why "limitations"? What are the ideals of each composer?
I think they are related. For example, I look for clear and transparent sounds and textures, so I often place restrictions to achieve the musical direction I am looking for.
Could you describe your creative process on the basis of one of your sounds, pieces, or live performances that's particularly dear to you, please?
[GC] I always talk about the birth of a song from my first album Starving Night that I think is very representative of my approach. On the album there is a song completely constructed by making simple interventions on a series of tracks recorded in my laboratory by literally hammering the blade of the circular saw that I use to cut wood for luthier instruments.
[AC] Pablo Picasso said: "You take what works, where you find it ... You start a painting with a certain idea and then you realize that it becomes something completely different."
So a piece is finished when nothing remains of the initial idea.
[TK] My creative process is basically improvisational. I improvise on a DAW, putting more and more sounds in. Not with a keyboard, but with a step write. The basis of my creation is not to over-elaborate the development and modulation. This is because the more elaborate the music becomes, the more likely it is to lose its essence.
Also, when I record the trumpet for various collaborations, I try to think about "how to make the music work without playing the trumpet". I try to make the music sound like it is happening without the trumpet playing. For example, for a five-minute song, the trumpet should only play for about a minute. This way the music will stand out.
In relation to sound, one often reads words like “material”, “sculpting”, and “design”. How does your own way of working with sound look like? Do you find using presets lazy?
[GC] From my previous answers it is possible to understand my approach to the sound material. I have nothing against presets, in fact I have used them often but always working on them and making them become something else and personal; in a way they are something very similar to Duchamp's readymades.
Working with sounds for me is something that is very close to sculpture. Returning to Tarkovsky, for him working with moving images was like "sculpting time".
[AC] The difference in terminology is related to the fact that nowadays the term electronic music includes very different things, from sound art to clubbing, so even the terms you mention can take on different nuances depending on both the cultural context and the person who uses them.
Regarding presets, if a delay pedal, for example, does exactly what I need, I certainly won't go and write a patch with Max for a delay effect from scratch on principle!
[TK] I used to be very interested in "materials", "sculpture" and "design", but not anymore. What I value now is: "Does the music I create resonate with people's emotions?" That's what I'm looking for.
I don't think using preset sounds is lazy at all. As I said before, the most important thing in creating, producing and composing is "what was thought is what was created?" So I don't care about "using presets is lazy". If it's good, I use it, and if it's far from my ideal, I tweak the preset to my liking. That's it.
The tendency to say "it's lazy to use presets as they are" has nothing to do with the essence of music. I think it's a pointless argument.
To some, the advent of AI and 'intelligent' composing tools offers potential for machines to contribute to the creative process. What are your hopes, fears, expectations and possible concrete plans in this regard?
[GC] We have been afraid and worried every time a revolutionary technology has entered our lives, it was the same for books, photography, cinema and TV. I want to hope that it will be the same for A.I. that if well used can be an additional and stimulating language available to authors in every creative sector.
[AC] It seems to me a debate that concerns entertainment music more than research music. In the field of experimental music we are more interested in the process itself than the result. If John Cage were alive, he would presumably have alternated the I-Ching with AI tools.
[TK] I am not afraid of AI at all. I have said before, technology will naturally continue to evolve and develop, so the last thing we need as a human race is "what did we think and what did we create?" I think the last bastion of humanity is "what did we think and what did we create?"
A relative of mine is an AI researcher and what I would like to do is create more and more works with AI that learns my information.
How important is sound for our overall well-being and in how far do you feel the "acoustic health" of a society or environment is reflective of its overall health? What importance does silence hold in this regard from your point of view?
[GC] I often think about silence, it is an extremely interesting concept. It does not exist, and John Cage knew it well, who in 1951 locked himself in the anechoic chamber at Harvard, a room isolated from any external noise, an acoustically dead space for the natural reverb. After a few moments he heard a dull hammering and a hissing rustle: the beating of his heart and the sound of blood flowing through his veins.Then a high-pitched, almost unbearable whistle: the noise of his nervous system.
[AC] The famous anecdote that Gianluca refers to is reported more precisely by the chronicles with Cage asking the laboratory technician the origin of these two sounds and the technician promptly responding with what we know. In my opinion this is also very interesting, what for the technician was obvious for Cage turns out to be a revelation.
Anyway, about “acoustic health”, we live in a society where acoustic and visual inputs are very intense. This is also a form of pollution, especially in Europe, in big cities. Finding ways and methods for subtraction practices becomes necessary not only for those who work in these fields.
The works of Hildegard Westerkamp, among others, with her sound walks for example, and of Pauline Oliveros with her sonic meditations should be included in the training for musicians.
[Read our Pauline Oliveros interview]
[TK] Looking at society in general, we believe that few people give much importance to "acoustic health".
Interestingly, there are some differences between Westerners and us Japanese when it comes to "silence". We Japanese prefer the soundscape of the countryside. We like the sound of insects, the babbling of rivers, animals and wind.
I have measured the loudness values of these soundscapes before and they are actually higher than 60 dB. In fact, the loudness value is about the same as urban noise. But we perceive those sounds as "silence".
Tinnitus and developing hyperacusis are very real risks for anyone working with sound. Do you take precautions in this regard and if you're suffering from these or similar issues – how do you cope with them?
[GC] Luckily I don't have any kind of problem except a back compromised by years of work in the laboratory, but that's another story.
[AC] Luckily I don't have any kind of hearing problems!
[TK] My ears aren't doing so well right now. The tinnitus only happens occasionally, but when it's quiet, I constantly hear a fairly high frequency sound in my head that I don't actually hear. Basically, the best thing I can do is give my ears a rest.
Seth S. Horowitz called hearing the “universal sense” and emphasised that it was more precise and faster than any of our other senses. How would our world be different if we paid less attention to looks and listened more instead?
[GC] Here is the main point of everything. Our experimental works should "educate", help familiarize people with an existential approach that puts the sound sphere at the center.
I come from anthropological studies and one of the books dearest to me when I studied ethnomusicology was "Ascoltare il mondo" by my teacher Antonello Ricci. A research on a small community in southern Italy through a careful analysis of the soundscape. An approach marked by Murray Schafer's research on the soundscape and on concepts developed by Walter Ong (listening, acoustic space and oral/aural dynamics). An approach that questions a certain anthropology in which sound phenomena are not taken into consideration.
Ricci overturns this perspective and searches for the sound dimension of the events of a community by identifying their function, meaning, value. Sounds are the key to understanding the social relations of a community. A community follows an "even evanescent sound signal, and responds promptly to the signals of its own listening, to guide behaviors, whether they are conflictual or determined by the simple fact of being together."
[AC] Our education since childhood is predominantly visual. Recognizing objects first, drawing then and finally the alphabet and writing are visual acts. We are able to semantically decode simple and complex figures, perhaps thousands every day, but the same thing does not happen with hearing, it is a sense that does not receive the same type of training.
It could be interesting to extend the practices I mentioned before, even to those who do not work with sound or even in schools: the results could surprise us.
[TK] I have attended a very interesting workshop on this topic over the years. It was taught by Naoko Tanaka, a musicologist and leading researcher in the field of soundscapes. In her workshop, participants were blindfolded and accompanied by an assistant on a walk through a forest or park.
Humans are often dependent on sight, but blindfolds allow us to be very attentive to what we touch and the sounds we hear from afar. Visit this website [in Japanese] to learn more.
